tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5100747061833336603.post1931038631788415199..comments2023-05-12T01:10:00.164-07:00Comments on Scrum Central: In Which Rob Gets Called Out For His Prior Post, And RespondsRobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5100747061833336603.post-51846072933560253752010-06-29T12:17:54.973-07:002010-06-29T12:17:54.973-07:00You got it Rob. Nailed it.
I attended the fire...You got it Rob. Nailed it. <br /><br />I attended the fireside win Ron Schow and a few fellow Utah gays. I don't speak for them but the fireside 100% promoted the mission of Evergreen and Narth. Those two organizations were listed in the fireside's program as info resources and Evergreen therapists presented during the segregated break out sessions (women w/sga, men w/sga, family/friends, priesthood leaders). <br /><br />I respect Ty Mansfield, and admire Fred and Marilyn Matis (all of whom were presenters) but I'm sad that they share the thoroughly pessimistic view of homosexuality espoused by Evergreen (and the Brethren, apparently).<br /><br />The fireside's theme/title "Joy in the Journey" was comically ironic as the entire message was suffering, enduring, fighting, and of course STRUGGLING! Joy comes after this life if we just repent and endure this to the end either celibate or in a MOM.<br /><br />Jesus Christ and the Atonement were brandished about repeatedly and adeptly to elicit the desired feelings of humility and contrition from the gay believers who are desperate to retain their faith and worthiness.<br /><br />I have little hope the Church will ever move toward acceptance. The fact it's mostly discontinued hate speech doesn't mean much. <br /><br />Best wishes and thanks.balehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01617256014045994395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5100747061833336603.post-78455602515269080862010-06-25T18:15:21.137-07:002010-06-25T18:15:21.137-07:00I've actually been wondering about the statist...I've actually been wondering about the statistics about gay men and women who remain active vs. leave the church. My anecdotal experience pretty clearly says most tend to at least become less active, if not entirely leaving, but how do you research that? You mentioned stats in your post: can you direct me to some? I think they'd be off because of closeted folks, but still, I'm interested.Original Mohomiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05220176833570828412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5100747061833336603.post-72093859443038191922010-06-22T04:17:16.893-07:002010-06-22T04:17:16.893-07:00Rob, you are right that freedom of choice must be ...Rob, you are right that freedom of choice must be respected. I hope for an environment in the church where fully informed decisions based on appropriate facts can be made without having to worry about fear and judgement.Mister Curiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00113134172902610883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5100747061833336603.post-43455556790782116582010-06-21T21:32:46.639-07:002010-06-21T21:32:46.639-07:00Rob, let's use your own approach of substituti...Rob, let's use your own approach of substitution with your own words, save only one change:<br /><br />"So even after dialogue has increased, understanding has spread, love and tolerance have been enhanced, and local leaders are more educated about racism, at the end of the day nothing will change."<br /><br />In my book, increased dialogue, understanding, love, tolerance and education are HUGE changes. If those changes even start to be made, at the end of the day, some hearts will be different, and that is what Steve seeks. His approach may not be perfect, but I applaud his efforts as well as your willingness to continue this exchange of views.<br /><br />I think it's also important to note that as much as the LDS church is historically a top-down organization, our world is increasingly flat, and hierarchical organizations from the Vatican to the brethren at 47 E. South Temple must deal with voices calling for accountability and change that--thanks to the Internet--can no longer be silenced.Nedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05938186985738546670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5100747061833336603.post-66727049064864216022010-06-21T11:57:30.072-07:002010-06-21T11:57:30.072-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Romulushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05698110566802674718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5100747061833336603.post-58705869427573337322010-06-21T05:48:00.937-07:002010-06-21T05:48:00.937-07:00@Mr. Curie:
The individual freedom to make such a...@Mr. Curie:<br /><br />The individual freedom to make such a choice must be respected. Whether the Church actually gives them full freedom of choice as you described is another matter.<br /><br />TBMs would say neither the Church nor the person can choose to change the factors you've described, they simply are what they are, and the individual has to choose on that basis.<br /><br />Others would agree with you that the Church does its utmost to skew the factors and throw its full weight behind one of the options. I stated in my post that the Church sets things up this way so as to make harmonious resolution of being gay and being a faithful Saint impossible. So I would agree with your description of what the Church does.<br /><br />I also agree that this makes the choice extremely unfair. That's the whole point of my post. But these are the circumstances we have to deal with for now, and within them, the freedom to choose should be respected.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5100747061833336603.post-19752853805559818812010-06-21T05:27:10.739-07:002010-06-21T05:27:10.739-07:00Very nice response, Rob.
Some may choose this p...Very nice response, Rob. <br /><br /><i>Some may choose this path, and I will be the first to agree that such choices must be respected</i><br /><br />I guess where I disagree with this statement is that I do not believe the church truly gives people a choice. The church places its weight, prophetic counsel, and the weight of eternity on the side of marriage between a man and a woman. For the believer, same-sex relationships are sinful and against the plan of happiness. The believer's ability to make a choice is severely compromised as long as this is the stance of the church. And I think the church's stance is directly against the option that would ultimately provide the most happiness for gay Mormons, their families, and the women who would have otherwise married them and the children who would have otherwise been born to them.Mister Curiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00113134172902610883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5100747061833336603.post-75713590464602883382010-06-21T00:15:31.215-07:002010-06-21T00:15:31.215-07:00Thanks for the thoughtful response Rob. While we ...Thanks for the thoughtful response Rob. While we may disagree on some things, I appreciate the respect you have afforded our sincere attempt to better the lives of our fellow gay members in our area. We are trying to effect change of heart from within. <br /><br />It's a start.Bravonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02762204502534599107noreply@blogger.com