Chapter Three. Again, Mr. Bigelow's initial statement will be first, in italics. My questions to him will follow. His latest response to my questions will be next, again in italics.
3. "Today's gay identity is a huge deception, and it sets off many of [your] last-days alarm bells" and "from a Mormon viewpoint, the emergence of the gay movement is clearly a sign of the times."
Please define "today's gay identity" and explain how it is a "deception." Please also explain why you believe "the emergence of the gay movement is clearly a sign of the times."
Today's gay identity is the public movement that began in 1969 with the Stonewall riot. Of course, there's probably nearly always been some kind of underground gay subculture among humans, for those willful enough to pursue their deviant inclinations against their consciences and society's taboos, and I know that some societies have tolerated various forms of homosexual behavior to certain degrees, but starting in 1969 is the first time that such an organized, aggressive public campaign got underway to normalize gay behavior and get society to accept it and embrace it as an equal alternative to and total replacement for heterosexuality, which I don't think any society has ever done before, not even the ancient Greeks. And now we're seeing it reach new heights of aggressiveness with the gay marriage issue, the ultimate sign of full acceptance.
It's a deception because gay feelings don't come from God, they come from—or are amplified by—Satan as a way of thwarting the plan of salvation, eternal families, all that good Mormon stuff. He deceives people in many ways on this issue, such as that if someone feels gay attraction they should act upon it and start having oral and/or anal sex with their own gender, or that the gay situation is just like the black situation was and therefore we shouldn't stand in the way of gay civil rights, including full marriage, etc. etc. Personally, I think this whole gay brouhaha of the past 40 years is one of the key strategies that Satan has been carefully crafting and planning for these latter days, and now he's springing it on our civilization in a big, unprecedented way, because not only is it knocking many individuals out of the plan of salvation but it's also dividing our society along secular/religious lines.
I realize that most of what I say is just nonsense if you don't see the world through the Mormon lens, so conversations like this aren't very productive. But oh well, I'll soldier on...
26 January 2010
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17 comments:
"willful enough to pursue their deviant inclinations against their consciences"
Telling someone what their conscience thinks is incredibly arrogant. I don't deny that gay marriage is against current church teachings, but please don't try and tell me what my conscience is saying.
"gay feelings don't come from God, they come from—or are amplified by—Satan"
And queue the suicides. Language like this is very harmful. Why do we feel the need to tell our youth that they are essentially the spawn of satan.
"if someone feels gay attraction they should act upon it and start having oral and/or anal sex with their own gender"
Statements like this show real ignorance on this issue. We have said it time and time again. It's not about the sex.
Amongst the points El Genio addressed there is also this one:
"...get society to accept it and embrace it as an equal alternative to and total replacement for heterosexuality,..."
Total replacement for heterosexuality?
I think I know what his real problem is. And yes, to be looking at the world through Mormon lenses with the problem he has does result in nonsense and unproductive conversation.
But, getting Mr. Bigelow to at least clarify and explain his nonsense can be productive to those who are trying to understand the destructive aspect of blind and unbridled religious adherence.
total replacement for heterosexuality
Sure there may be a few crazies in the gay rights movement who state this, but they are as much the norm of the gay rights movement as the KKK is for the whole of society. This is rhetorical fallacy.
gay marriage issue, the ultimate sign of full acceptance.
Mr Bigelow, are you saying that you are perfectly fine with rejecting a group of people? That you are fine with not offering full acceptance of who they are and who Heavenly Father told us to accept? Shouldn't we be comforting those who stand in need of comfort rather than demonizing them by stating that their feelings come from Satan. Even if they do come from him, that is the quickest way to drive a person to suicide.
It's a deception because gay feelings don't come from God
How do you know they don't come from God? President Hinckley stated that "We don't know" why people are gay. Where did you get your answer from?
such as that if someone feels gay attraction they should act upon it and start having oral and/or anal sex with their own gender
If Satan is tempting people to start having Sex, wouldn't gay marriage limit the number of sexual partners? Wouldn't that create a culture rather than a counter culture? A productive society that can grow? And isn't that better than the current slew of broken families, broken covenants and dead bodies? Even if it is morally wrong for two people of the same gender to get married, isn't that better than to destroy a family through divorce? To lose a child to suicide because she is constantly told she is less than and that she is being possessed by Satan?
I understand things from the Mormon lens, but if the worth of one soul saved is great in the sight of the Lord, then how great is the sorrow at the number of souls whose hope and life's are destroyed?
I agree, most of this is just nonsense. . .
"gay feelings don't come from God, they come from—or are amplified by—Satan
One question I have never been able to get a sufficient answer to from the church is that if this is true, why do I remember being "different" as early on as age six? Where in the gospel is the doctrine that permits Satan to completely skew someone sexual orientation before the age of accountability?
I've heard some argue that the age of accountability isn't "exactly" eight years old, but that teaching is contrary to the revealed doctrine in D&C 29:47.
Why would Satan have such an influence as this over some and not others. I have never felt my "gay feelings" come from satan.
Mr. Bigelow,
You know I think we've met before. Yes I remember now. I think it was in elementary that we met. You were the kid that whispered behind my back, "look at the way he walks, he must be a fag"
Or was it in Jr. High, when you demanded to know who I was dating, and when I would tell you I was accused of "playing for the other team,"
No, wait, I think it was in High School, when in the locker rooms you made jokes about the kids you thought were homos and how you would beat the crap out of anyone you thought looked at you the wrong way.
I remember you Mr Bigelow, I used to be scared to death of you, but you know what, I'm NOT anymore. You used to be able to tell me how I felt, how I am deceived, how I am a deviant, or a perversion of nature, but not anymore.
What does frighten me, the thought that you may have influence over the minds of some youth in your ward or stake, that you will spread your intolerance masked as righteousness to the young that look up to you for guidance.
Tonight I pray for that young man in your care, that young man full of self doubt and loathing. I pray that God will get him out of your presence and into the arms of someone who knows the real meaning of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
such as that if someone feels gay attraction they should act upon it and start having oral and/or anal sex with their own gender
It strikes me as funny that he feels the need to tie oral sex with homosexuality. Yup, gays have oral and anal sex. But a lot more straights do than gays (simply because there are a lot more heterosexuals than homosexuals in the world). Its kind of a non-issue, unless he is trying to say that only vaginal penetration with a penis is "real, God-ordained" sex. And I don't think he wants to go there.
and get society to accept it and embrace it as an... total replacement for heterosexuality
Because gay sex is just that much better? Obviously it is for homosexuals, but the idea that gays want to "turn" everyone gay is ridiculous. I find this logic to be hilarious. Maybe he is afraid of "turning" gay?
I think he shows his hand with this last comment.
unless he is trying to say that only vaginal penetration with a penis is "real, God-ordained" sex. And I don't think he wants to go there.
He might... At one time, this was the church's pseudo-official position, and a lot of staunch Mormons still see anything other than vanilla missionary-position sex as wrong.
Heck, at one time, the church's pseudo-official position was that only reproductive sex was proper, and obviously that's going to be penis-in-vagina.
Thankfully, these days the more-or-less official position is "we're not going to ask what you do in the bedroom" or, as I heard one person put it: "What goes on in the bedroom is between you, your wife, and the Lord, and even that might be one person too many."
Responding El Genio:
From the Mormon viewpoint, the Light of Christ, or conscience, helps move people toward the plan of salvation. This light does not move people toward deciding to act on gay temptations.
What we need to tell our youth is that gay feelings are a weakness to be resisted, just like a host of other human weaknesses like anger, greed, laziness, pride, gluttony, etc. etc. Satan knows our weaknesses and tempts us, and this is not exclusive to "gay" people, and neither is suicide.
I know it's not only about sex: it's also about romance and emotions and companionship and stuff. But the sex is the big problem, and any romance that leads one to gay sex is a deception, from the Mormon POV as I understand and embrace it.
Responding to TGD:
I can see how my comment "total replacement for heterosexuality" was misread. I did not mean that for the whole society but for an individual. The Greeks tolerated homosexual behavior, but not as a total replacement for heterosexuality in an individual's life: in other words, such men also still had a wife and children. But today's gay movement is totally gay (smile), advocating a lifestyle without ANY heterosexuality.
BB: Perhaps you've never heard this, but I think it will clear everything up: "Love the sinner, but hate the sin." Seriously.
People caught in deceptions and vices like gay sex want to be enabled, on some level. Society is doing that for them now, which only makes them want it more and ALL the way, including "marriage." But Mormons know better and will NEVER enable gay sex, because it can only lead to long-term unhappiness (especially eternally).
I agree that sticking to one same-sex partner is better than being promiscuous, but both are still telestial-level behaviors and are no where near being worthy of the term "marriage." It's a counterfeit of marriage.
Gay Saint: We are born on this earth with weaknesses that often become evident before the age of accountability. Just because someone is aware before age eight that they feel attraction to their own gender doesn't excuse them from resisting that temptation once they're accountable. Just like a toddler who is subject to character weaknesses such as anger tantrums, overeating, laziness, lying/stealing, etc. isn't excused from overcoming those weaknesses as they grow up.
Good to Be Free: What a ridiculous comment. Nah, I was more likely to be friends with those kind of guys than to be their bully. I've even had gay roommates (one who died of AIDS).
I'm all about understanding and compassion for those caught in the "gay" dilemma, just not about enabling them. Before you judge me further, check out a novel I recently published. I offer the PDF of this novel free to anyone on this blog who would like to check it out:
http://www.zarahemlabooks.com/product.sc?productId=26&categoryId=1
Madame Curry: FYI, here's my personal Mormon-influenced opinion on oral sex: I'm sure oral sex feels good. But I think it's part of today's permissiveness and falls into the "unholy and impure" category. I don't think our heavenly parents would do it, and I don't think we should be doing it either. Also, society's increasingly open acceptance of it has emboldened the gay movement, because if heteros can do it, why not homos. Also, oral sex is running rampant among youth and confusing them. This is a door that should not have been opened and is degrading our society and our relationships, in my opinion. Just because it feels good doesn't make it right; after all, anal sex can feel good too, even if it's with another species.
I just want to voice my support of Mr. Bigelow. I think that some of you are much more intolerant than some of those of whom you complain.
I don't understand why there is always the either/or argument. Either you live the "gay-lifestyle" with complete acceptance from society, or you commit suicide?
I really don't understand all of the same-sex attraction issue...I wish I did...I am trying. I will always believe that we should resist the temptation to sin...we all have them...and it is my belief that choosing to act on a homosexual attraction would be a sin.
I think it is brave and kind of Mr. Bigelow to consent to do this and put up with the abuse that he is receiving for his efforts. I appreciate his insight and input. I find it difficult to find much on this subject and especially something that "feels" right to me.
I have a close family member that struggles with same-sex attraction and I love him very much and admire his efforts to seek God's will and to do the right thing.
@Joseph,
I understand what you are saying and I hope you got a chance to take a look at Christoper and my back and forth on another on of these posts. If you do want to learn more I am happy to show you my perspective better.
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